I originally wrote this for www.gaelick.com
Gilbert Baker was in Dublin recently and I was lucky enough to be given the opportunity to interview him. He designed the rainbow flag in 1978, and it is today known worldwide a symbol of the gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender (LGBT) movement.
The flag had its first public outing at the San Francisco Gay Freedom Parade on June 25th, 1978.The flag is today recognised by the international Congress of Flag Makers, is flown in Pride marches worldwide and has become much more than just a flag, it is a symbol of hope for the LGBT Community.
He is a lovely, humble and eloquent man, and I was surprised and delighted at the end of the interview to be given a signed flag. We had a very interesting chat, and here is what he had to say:
What made you choose the rainbow as the flag?
It was the logical choice for me. It fits with the diversity of our community and covers every gender, race and every spectrum of human sexuality.
There are some Internet sources that say that the song “Somewhere Over the Rainbow” was part of your inspiration, is that true?
*laughs* Well I suppose Judy Garland had a little bit to do with it! We were the rainbow Rolling Stones generation, and there’s just something so beautiful about that song.
Why not the real rainbow colours, i.e. 2 shades of purple as opposed to the original pink and turquoise colours?
What do you mean, a real rainbow? What’s a “real” rainbow?!
I suppose I mean the traditional rainbow in the sky, the one seen through a prism for example.
The rainbow flag is an idea. It’s much more that a literal graphic thing, it’s an idea. That’s the whole point of the flag, it represents a complete spectrum.
What made you choose the various aspects that each colour represents?
The meanings are very tongue in cheek. Flags are always ascribed meaning, and therefore needed to have meanings. I mostly pulled them out of my hat. I came up with them through a combination of yoga, acid and colour theory! I wanted a simple explanation that incorporated the elements of what makes us a global tribe, including pink for sex and red for life. Sex is important! It was tragic but early on, when I knew the flag was going to be a hit, I had to make a compromise. Due to the shortage of the coloured material for pink and turquoise, I had to remove those colours from the flag. I feel guilty for this compromise, and for having to remove sex and magic from the flag. There really is no literal colour meaning, because flags are ideas, it’s what we project onto them that makes them so powerful.
Do you think the pink should be put back in, now that the material and colour is more readily available? Or do you feel the design has evolved in line with the modern demographic?
I think these days, people are more aware that there was an original version, but it doesn’t really matter. The flag is now ubiquitous with the gay movement. The pink is in the flags I personally make, in the artwork world of political power.
Which version do you consider the true flag (the one widely used, or the one with the extra stripes)?
There is no “true” flag. Although there is the original, the current one is also original. I made the one with the extra stripes first, but I made the current version too. I had to make a choice so that the flags could become a worldwide symbol. I’m glad I made it, the flag is loved and cherished, and it has transcended me.
Where there other symbols/ideas that you considered before deciding on the rainbow flag?
No, I always knew that rainbow fit perfectly, it was just obvious to me.
Were there other people involved in the creation of the flag, or of its design information? I know Harvey Milk had a hand in urging you to design it.
Sure, there was other people involved. A flag’s birth is an important part of history, and this one was no different. I made it in the Gay Community Centre, and Cleeve Jones, (conceiver of the NAMES Project AIDS Memorial Quilt) among others were involved.
If you had to design it again, would you still do it the same way?
I probably would…That’s an interesting question actually. Today I have more experience, and there is better technology and a wider variety of fabric. But I think I’d still do it the same way. The flag is simple, it’s perfect. I wish I’d known more about the laws around intellectual property though! Flags are public domain, so I get no royalties. I didn’t make it for money, people needed a symbol to look to. I made it in a time of power and the flag belongs to everyone. I believe that a true flag has to be torn from the soul of the people.
Do you enjoy that the design is now nearly ubiquitous with gay culture? In your interview with the Irish Times, you said “I still bristle when people refer to it as the gay flag. It’s about sexual liberation.” But it seems to be known everywhere as the gay flag?
I LOVE it! It worked brilliantly; of course I love it. That was the whole point of it, to make visibility happen. Most of our LGBT brothers and sisters have no idea who I am, the flag is completely independent of personality and celebrity. It has a different meaning for everyone individually.
What was the original reaction to the flag?
It was a thing you really had to be there for. We first unfurled them on June 25th, 1978. It was the gay freedom day parade, on the anniversary of the Stonewall riots. The best flags are born in revolutions! We ran the flags up two flagpoles on the United Nations Plaza, so it was an international symbol from the beginning. Looking at the people around as the flags went up, they owned it immediately. It was instantaneous, like a bolt of lightening. It changed my life. I don’t know how to describe it, it was like pulling a sword from stone. It was just incredible.
How was it to be gay in San Fran at the time?
It was fabulous!! We were very free to explore, not just sexuality, but individuality as artists. It was very unconventional, but in a positive way. We were free to express ourselves, and in many ways we invented ourselves.
In the aftermath of Harvey Milk’s assassination, how did the landscape of the LGBT community change in San Francisco?
It changed. Harvey was alive for birth of flag, there for unfurling, and then tragically assassinated. I don’t know how to describe it, but the power shifted from Harvey and artists, to institutional forms of power. The LGBT movement became not so individually driven, but institutionally driven. Harvey was young, and we lost him to murder. We thought this was an anomaly. But then half of our friends died from aids. Murder and death became omnipresent at this time.
How do you feel about the flags with the added black stripe? I read online that it represents AIDS, and that the creator of this addition to the flag wants the black stripe torn off and burned when a cure is found.
I get it, ok, sure, whatever. I prefer the Red Ribbon symbol though. I think that was really well done. It’s a better, more authentic symbol as it’s original. It was the first of the ribbon symbols. The variation of the flag is a variation, it’s not unique. The Red Ribbon was original. Like the Pink Triangle, which was re-invented by ACT-UP, it shows that silence equals death. AIDS is a holocaust. The second life of the pink triangle was also horror and negativity. The rainbow flag is supposed to be celebratory and represent nearly a piece of nature. There is no black in the sky, only light and colours. It should be magical.
Does it ever annoy you if you see the flag upside down or represented back to front?
There is no wrong way!! I made the flag both ways. The flag is versitale, just like people. It’s about diversity.
What are your thoughts on the subsequent flags for the various factions of the LGBT community -the bi pride flag, leather pride, trans* pride etc?
Everybody’s got a flag now! When I created the rainbow flag, it was a new symbol, and this was something that set it apart. It was something that everyone could use and it had a universal meaning, it didn’t need to be explained. It then set in motion a desire for other communities to follow with their own flags.
In 2003, I was sewing a big flag in Key West as part of the sea to sea flag organised by Absolut. While I was making the flag, I got a call from my friends who were on holiday in Milan. They were ringing to tell me how gay Milan was, and that the rainbow flag was everywhere. I thought, ‘This is great, it’s really global’ and then my friends rang back to tell me that the flags over there had “PACE” written on them, and were for the peace movement, not the LGBT movement. They kept saying that they were ‘Stealing the flag’ and that I should put a stop to it. I asked them if they were serious, that they wanted me to stop the flag being used as an international symbol of peace?? We are the peace and love people! I would never stop it. The fact they are using the rainbow is a credit and an honour to us. You can’t steal a rainbow!
What is your hope for the future of the flag?
The same hopes that I have for our people. The LGBT movement is for people, for justice, for human rights. It’s something that is still evolving. Power is never given, power is always taken. Freedom just isn’t going to show up, we have to stay involved; we need to stay vigilant and fight. We still have a long way to go.
And your hopes for the future of the gay pride movement in general?
I have hope, I’m not completely jaded. I have great faith in us. Everyone one of us has the same story. Every generation, every individual, we have all discovered who we are, we have had the moment of realisation that gay is who I am, and that’s ok. We all have that moment of self-discovery, of self-revelation, and we all have to come out, say it to family, friends and colleagues, and this is something that we all share. Coming out is just as hard today as it was yesterday. And that little moment of time in our own personal life, is a drop of water in a wave that’s changing the world.
Where are the original flags located? Do you have one?
The original flags were made using hand dyed cotton and unfortunately fell apart after a year. The next big flag I made, there are parts all over the world. I have small fragments left. When I re-did the flag in 1998, I did it using organic dye, so there was a big mess, because one drop of water and dyes run. I did keep the sewing machine I made it on, and I later donated it to the Historical Society in San Fran.
Do you get annoyed with people give out about the flag being used by Absolut Vodka?
I believe that everyone has a right to their opinion; even some of my friends say I’m a sell-out. But I have a different opinion. In case of Absolut Vodka, they have been around for 30 years in the LGBT community, they have credibility within our community, and they have integrity as a brand. They care more about us than their profit margin. Absolut celebrate creativity. I could have picked anyone, but they were wonderful because they celebrate creativity, they understand…Absolut are a good corporate citizen and this is good for the success.
Some companies exploit the flag, and what have they done for us?? Where the fuck were they when AIDS was so prevalent? I have high annoyance at people exploiting the flag. I couldn’t stop it if I wanted to, but I have seen the flag on some really tacky shit! Pardon my language!
People need to know that when people organised themselves at the workplace, when they said “I’m gay” or “We’re gay”, we showed that there are far more of us than you can imagine. Without corporate power, we have no government power. Government policy is far behind corporate policy, we have to bring corporate power into our arsenal. Slow as this is, it’s good for the movement. And there needs to be credit given to the unions. Unions got behind rights as gay people. I’m a huge supporter of unions, and of responsible corporate citizenship.
The following night, I attended the event in the National Gallery, when he spoke at length about the history for the flag. It was a very moving speech, and amazing to listen to. At the end of it, he presented a tiny artwork of the flag to the Gallery, and the representative of the Gallery accepted it with some lovely words about how happy they were to have him there, and they are delighted to have more diversity present, as that is what they strive for. As Gilbert pointed out, Ireland is really moving forward in many ways. As he pointed out, we’re ahead of America is the Civil Partnership stakes!
I would like to thank Gilbert Baker for taking the time to talk to me, and to Anri at Conway Communications for arranging the interview.
